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Post by patriotgames on Mar 19, 2014 19:45:34 GMT -5
Why is it that the Russian SAMs seems to always have better range then the US SAMs, like the Patriot System? I guess this is once again a difference in doctrine?
I had a discussion with a friend from way back and I remember him saying something like, "I think it's because the US would almost always going to be on the attack rather than defense... and so confident of getting air superiority".
Even if this is remotely true, then it still puts the US allies at a disadvantage, if they can't get SAMs which will have the range of say an S300?
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Post by superxsoldier on Mar 19, 2014 20:19:46 GMT -5
Not much stops US allies from getting the S-300. Admittedly it would be a politically controversial deal, but I don't see Russia refusing to sell it to say France, or Germany. Greece got them from Cyprus after all, and they even had Russian specialists to assist in training and integration. Turkey expressed interest in the S-400 and this was met rather warmly by Russia.
Additionally, the USAF is capable of controlling the skies in a manner that the VVS can only dream of. Consequently the US can get away with few and very limited SAMs, where as Russia is forced to develop sohpisticated and highly mobile SAM systems to provide tactical cover from the air.
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Post by BlackHawk on Mar 19, 2014 20:33:17 GMT -5
I have always pondered why there are such differences in SAM systems from Russia versus the US. I have to guess that alot of different things have made this a reality. Doctrine, strategy, tactics, weaponary, technology, geography, political, financial and national pride all among them. The sheer number of SAM systems produced by the Soviet bloc and current Russian Federation is astonishing when compared to the relatively few systems the West has fielded. From the SA-2 Guideline to the S-400 Triumf there has been all different types, sizes and approaches to SAM systems produced by the Soviet bloc. I would have to guess that the main few reasons for this is that Russia is a huge land area which is surrounded by potentially hostile nations, while the US is large also, it is protected by two giant Oceans to either side and the only real threat from aircraft comes from the North over the Arctic from Russia. The US doctrine and weaponary sees them gaining air superiority in a conflict and they are usually seen as the side on the offense rather than the defense. The Communist system allowed for development of multiple systems at once, little or no accountability and no worries about financial or political constraints or problems, while the Democratic system witnessed public industry developing one dependable system with a budget to follow and a doctrine to adhere to which limited SAM systems importance in our battle theory. We instead depended on fighter aircraft, electronic warfare and other means to protect our airspace and interests. As for the much better range of Russian systems, I would say that had alot to do with countering our air launched guided weapons which could be launched far from the target area and also because of their geographic situation and the massive amount of airspace they have to defend. Snap to reality, to nowadays and look at the record of SAM systems. The Patriot has a much envied record and the Naval Standard series is extremely capable, even shooting a satellite out of space. When MEADS comes online it will be a true 21st Century SAM system. The Patriot has a range of 100mi, the Standard 90mi, the S-300 120mi, the S-400 250mi, even the older SA-5/S-200 has a range of 190mi. The Russians had to worry about U-2, SR-71 and other spy aircraft overflying their territory and alot of the reasons for building systems with long ranges, high speeds and high altitudes is due to that. As an off-shoot of SAM systems, Anti-Ballisitc Missile systems are the next step in air defense, now giving us the ability to defend against the previously untouchable threat posed by ballistic missiles. The US is the undisputed leader in the this field. The Patriot PAC-3 has a 100% success rate during OIF against short and medium range ballistic missiles. Currently the Patriot PAC-2/3, THAAD, Aegis SM-2/3 and limited GMD forces make up missile defense assets. In the future NCADE, kinetic energy interceptor, API ABM technologies, MEADS ABM component, HELLADS, possible YAL airborne laser technology mature comeback and HEMPAM-DL high energy multi-phase anti-missile defense laser technologies could become major systems.
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Post by superxsoldier on Mar 19, 2014 21:01:02 GMT -5
Back during the Cold War the USSR had very advanced ABM systems, including the currently operational A-135 (recently modernized) strategic ABM, and the S-300V. All modern Russian and Soviet tac-SAMs have some ABM capabilities. This includes the Tor-M1/M2, Buk/Buk-M1/M2, Tunguska, and Pantsyr. It's the numbers deployed, and thorough levels of layered GBAD that are the marked difference between the US and USSR/Russia in this area.
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Post by russianspecialforces on Mar 19, 2014 21:36:15 GMT -5
Maybe US, (and i am taking a shoot in the dark here with a .22) is going to begin relying on Air Laser technology, I am just saying, maybe this is the next big thing
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Post by patriotgames on Mar 19, 2014 22:17:29 GMT -5
I guess my buddy was pretty much spot on then. The US will doesn't really need longer range SAMs because they can pretty get air dominance in just about any conflict they go to.
I did not really think about the geography of US vs Russia with the latter being surrounded by not very friendly neighbors. I guess it makes a lot of sense to have these SAM sites around the borders where potential conflicts would erupt.
But then again, wouldn't it be nice to have a superior air force and have longer range SAMs? Is it really that expensive to get these SAMs a longer range? What's the range of MEADS and how much more expensive is it versus say a Patriot System? DID reported the US Army doesn't want it anymore though.
SuperxSoldier, what's VVS? A lot of acronyms in these boards got me stumped.
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Post by silencer on Mar 19, 2014 22:25:35 GMT -5
The US uses its Patriot SAMs more for ballistic missiles defense than for shooting down fighters. Thats what the F-15, -16, -18, -22 and -35 are for.
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Post by navyseals on Mar 19, 2014 22:55:29 GMT -5
what's VVS? A lot of acronyms in these boards got me stumped. Russian Air Force, I think.
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Post by fr33dom on Mar 20, 2014 2:59:10 GMT -5
VVS is the Russian Airforce and literally is Voenno-Vozsdushniye Voyska, Military-Aerial Forces. Current Russian SAM-sites are not around the borders. They cluster heavily around Moscow and St. Peters and otherwise are few in number and far between. IMINT & Analysis: Worldwide SAM Site Overview
EDIT: As you can see I went and downloaded the SAM inventory, and then took a screenshot of the active Russian sam sites. I'll mess around with it some more and see if I can figure out how to make it show the range rings. EDIT2: Here are the range rings as promised. You can see many times multiple redundance around the capital cities, but giant holes in the network around the border regions, especially in the Far East, and Siberia. Blue is radar and EW range, red and all other colors are SAM engagement ranges. EDIT3: Here's an interesting article on the subject. geimint.blogspot.com/search/label/S-400When I get home I'll do the same sort of range circles and deployed cites map for USA SAM sites, for contrast. Also please keep in mind this does not include any tactical systems as they are 1) typically not datalinked, and 2) very mobile.
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Post by Olivia on Mar 20, 2014 3:09:07 GMT -5
I think it has to do with the way we handle war. We arent the type to site and build permanent fortifications or something that can have multiple uses.
Why use a SAM when you can use a F-16 or F-15 which can do many different missions at many different points besides AntiAir.
Really it comes down to cost. Far easier to set your country as a fortress if your going to use fixed or semi mobile weapons systems like arty and AA.
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