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Post by bridezilla on Mar 19, 2014 19:38:49 GMT -5
I'm sorry but we absolutely disagree.
I'd refer you to the studies and personal testimonies from the Vietnam War. The fact torture breaks a man like an animal is established by hard hard experience from men who lived it to know that truth as a first hand reality.
Is what that requires worth it? That seems the question.
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Post by augustusmasonicus on Mar 19, 2014 20:17:04 GMT -5
You mean you would torture 3 people... right? And not to death, because no information is forthcoming from a corpse. Your argument, and one thats seen all over the place, is consequentialism, or "the ends justify the means". The argument can be used to literally justify anything, as long as the "end" is considered "good", and what is good is subjective to the individual.
The problem with consequentialism is that "good" ends born out of "evil" means are not good at all. Just like planting a kudzu seed will not result in an apple tree, no matter if you call the resultant kudzu vine an apple tree or not, good is never the fruit of evil; evil is the fruit of evil, and good is the fruit of good, even in a reality which good and evil are subjective. Dont get it twisted; there is always a choice. And you have, or are prepared, to choose evil. "Theres no choice" is just an eyes-tightly-shut rationalization that creates the comforting delusion of mitigated personal responsibility.
Good never grows from evil. In the situation above, you do two things: trade one evil act for another, and also completely take on full responsibility for that evil act onto your own being. You saved the apple orchard from fire by tainting the entire orchard with a mutagenic poison that will destroy the essence of the orchard, slowly corrupting the goodness of it from the inside out until at some point you no longer have apples growing in that orchard; you have something... unintended, and no where near as wholesome.
Both options achieve the same end: the destruction of the orchard. Just one is overt and not by your hand, the other is covert and by your hand.
So why really would one decide to stop the destroyer by becoming the destroyer? Certainly not out of a sense of the ends justifying the means, because the end happens to be the same, only the means are different.
Could it be when one is given the opportunity to become what they hate or a variant of it, they will usually accept? I don't know the answer to that.
But I do know that if you wish to grow apples, you plant apple seeds, not kudzu seeds. And I also know that if you wish to retain the health and vitality of your orchard, you water it with pure water, not tainted water from a chemical plants run off.
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TheMarkFrost
Administrator
Uncovering The Inconvenient Truth
Posts: 241
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Post by TheMarkFrost on Mar 19, 2014 20:31:27 GMT -5
I'm sorry but we absolutely disagree. I'd refer you to the studies and personal testimonies from the Vietnam War. The fact torture breaks a man like an animal is established by hard hard experience from men who lived it to know that truth as a first hand reality. Is what that requires worth it? That seems the question. You will get absolutely no argument from me on that point. It is the very essence of what torture is...it breaks a human being...body, mind and soul. We seem to have had some catastrophic breakdown in communication...so let me be clear...I do not...under any circumstances....condone the torture of any human being, no matter how bad they are perceived to be, nor how urgent the need. It is wrong. It's a as simple as that. It cannot be defended for any reason....none. Not to save a hundred or a million. I say if we can torture another human being...then we are no better than animals ourselves.
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Post by crimsontide on Mar 19, 2014 20:56:44 GMT -5
if you think Obama is being told everything, I've got a bridge to sell you....when oversite is patently refused by the "3-letter" agencies. something is terribly wrong. when our elected leaders cannot find out what these agencies are doing, those agencies are the one's in charge of this nation.
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Post by nikita on Mar 19, 2014 21:33:14 GMT -5
No. Never. No. Its wrong. Just, no. Think about this sexykiller.....how would you like it if it were you being tortured? Perhaps a sister...a cousin...your mother or...maybe a beloved aunt? Would you still defend it do you think? Would you still see it's absolute necessity? Would it comfort you if the CIA told you they did it for National Security and stopping terrorism?
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TheMarkFrost
Administrator
Uncovering The Inconvenient Truth
Posts: 241
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Post by TheMarkFrost on Mar 19, 2014 22:15:32 GMT -5
Obama, like all Presidents are only told what they need to know...nothing more.
But in this case, Obama is well aware....and is once again failing in his duty to faithfully execute the law, which he took a solemn oath to the American people to do. The CIA has lied to Congress, the Senate, and the American people about a great many things recently...and torture is just one of them. Not one person has been prosecuted, and in many cases, those involved have been promoted to higher positions. Barak Obama is allowing the CIA to keep this report from the American people.
If this is the stuff we know...can you imagine the stuff we don't??
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Post by paranormalskits on Mar 19, 2014 22:24:01 GMT -5
Is what that requires worth it? That seems the question. No. Never. NEVER. Especially not in my name as a citizen of this once great country.
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Post by sexykillergirl on Mar 19, 2014 22:52:10 GMT -5
They aren't principles if we make exceptions for them. It's the same excuse they've been giving us forever. "Sometimes we have to use the dark side to defeat the enemy" I'm still trying to figure out how smuggling guns to Mexican cartels is helping us but oh well, Holder knows best - right?
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Post by ciathug on Mar 19, 2014 23:19:07 GMT -5
Incorrect.
Torture only provides the aggressor with a predetermined answer to a predetermined question. Nothing more, nothing less.
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TheMarkFrost
Administrator
Uncovering The Inconvenient Truth
Posts: 241
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Post by TheMarkFrost on Mar 20, 2014 2:54:11 GMT -5
They aren't principles if we make exceptions for them. It's the same excuse they've been giving us forever. "Sometimes we have to use the dark side to defeat the enemy" I'm still trying to figure out how smuggling guns to Mexican cartels is helping us but oh well, Holder knows best - right? Ahhh...yes, Eric Holder...the fastest and most furious Attorney General...ever. That always looks good on your resume. That....maybe not so much. Of course he was. If Eric Holder says it`s legal...you take it as such...lol.
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