|
Post by Apollo_18 on Mar 25, 2014 3:20:02 GMT -5
Sorry I didn't make it clear mark, I was talk to PoisonIvy girl, not you. Hense the "another obama supporter in drag".
|
|
|
Post by maverick on Mar 25, 2014 3:58:13 GMT -5
We all know the CIA is in bed with the NSA...and that both agencies need to put out of commission. Keeping perhaps a small remnant of the CIA just for .. you know...spying on our enemies?
Calling out the CIA was probably the best thing that Diane F has ever done, too bad it took someone spying on her, for her to act but...you take the small victories wherever you can.
Funny how this thread gets derailed into an anti Obama...dem vs lib farce again. Can't you guys stay on track? Topic? and fight the real enemy?
|
|
|
Post by fr33dom on Mar 26, 2014 8:22:20 GMT -5
That's kind of the point. You get information, you'll get everything the person knows. The problem is, in getting that information they'll also make a lot of stuff up. Someone under torture will say anything in order to get it to stop. Sometimes that's the truth, but what happens when the truth isn't good enough? The degree of confidence with information is very low. The only way you can improve that is to get a lot of people, and use widespread torture, then keep track of what things are repeated by the victims. That happened to the US in Vietnam... but we just picked a few people and tortured them. Which is the worst possible way to go about it.
|
|
|
Post by burnnotice on Mar 26, 2014 8:34:50 GMT -5
That happened to the US in Vietnam... but we just picked a few people and tortured them. Which is the worst possible way to go about it. I'll disagree with that about how limited I think it's been over the past decade or more. A few people are what have been among the publicly known prisoners and the Gitmo bunch. Gitmo always has been the showcase and why I've really shaken my head at people suggesting it's the center of all abuse or something. (Pizza, Pepsi and $750,000 Soccer fields... Some hardship) It's the one place acknowledged to exist at all for the IRC to visit or attorneys everywhere to even know to put down for an address someone might have gone to. Even that, for prisoner records, are public. (If not fully intended..they sure became that way. Sets are available around the net for detailed stuff on each prisoner still there). The world wide network of prisons I strongly believe to have existed...or still does, is a whole different matter. The movie 'Rendition' attempted to capture a piece of that with interviews at the end to give light on real first hand experiences from within the black network. Those were still people who came back out and are known after that. I doubt many if not most who went that route DID come back out. Torture has been widespread, IMO...and part of why I think absolute accountability, not a denial of it being a tool in war and extreme circumstance, is more realistic. We got what we set out to get, by using this, I believe....but at what cost and what did we create among our own people in the process? Realistic debates we've not yet faced as a nation, IMO.
|
|
|
Post by voltaire on Mar 26, 2014 8:43:02 GMT -5
The nuke in a city/imminent threat scenario is often used to justify torture but it's a totally unrealistic scenario. IF (and that's a huge if) it did happen, then yes we should use any method at our disposal to get that information but even this torture scenario is critically flawed. People can withstand torture for a given amount of time, if it's an extremist that knows he's going to be killed by a nuke within 24 hours if he simply keeps quiet he'll be able to withstand the torture for that time. Torture usually needs weeks and months to work... sometimes even years. Especially when someone knows that simply by being quiet, they will win. The other aspect of this that's flawed is that any group that's willing to take such measures, is also going to have an understanding with the rest of their group that none of them will be taken alive just to be sure info doesn't get out.
In your second scenario, again the guy doesn't care. If he stays quiet for 12 hours, then time is up and that kid is dead. He's out his freedom, but everyone knows he wasn't getting that anyways and suddenly you're on the hook for torture.
Because people can hold out for a time, the whole imminent threat justification for torture simply doesn't work.
The best thing you can do in these types of situations is to try and give the people involved a reason to want to live. They're already willing to die, and they want to take you with them. A bit of pain just makes their cause feel all the more justified. There's a natural organizational defense against torture and that's independent cells. Terrorists have already adopted this, they have ties to each other for funding, training, and overall objectives but the execution of those objectives is done by individual bodies so that if one is compromised the rest don't fall. This also prevents that critical mass of torture victims. A national military by design doesn't function this way however so torture will be effective against it.
|
|