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Post by johnnyrockers on Mar 19, 2014 9:04:41 GMT -5
I respectfully disagree that the books of the Torah were written in 500BC -- I've seen some claims of that lately, along with some people who claim that it was originally written in Greek, not a form of Paleo-Hebrew, another claim I see as being not supported by the evidence. It seems, to me, to be yet another effort of some peoples' part to discredit Christianity and/or Judaism.
Does it matter if there really was a guy named Abram/Abraham, somewhere back in the mists of time? On the one hand, not really -- most of Genesis represents things that are more mythical than they are historical. On the other, if Christ referred to him in a concrete manner ("Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" John 8:58 NIV) then either he was lying or not all-knowing, both indications that Jesus was not God.
With that in mind, along with the apparent genealogical ties that Israel has to Abraham, through Isaac, Jacob and Jacob's twelve sons, I'm inclined to believe that there really was an Abraham at some point in the distant past, and that he's not just a fabricated character or re-figured person from another culture.
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Post by area51 on Mar 19, 2014 9:57:33 GMT -5
I think you may have it backwards my friend. The Aryans who invaded Northern India thousands of years ago were likely the children of Abraham and Keturah his concubine after Sarah's passing. to quote the OT " Genesis 25:6: And to the sons of Abraham's concubines, Abraham gave gifts, and he sent them away from his son Isaac while he [Abraham] was still alive, eastward to the land of the East." I don't think so. If Abraham did exist, he MAY have been "A-Brahmin" but he was NOT Brahman. The Vedas were written in Sanskrit, which was not an Aryan language.
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Post by pimpsmackyou on Mar 19, 2014 10:06:02 GMT -5
Except that they HAD to get it wrong because the world isn't 6,000 years old. And that's what the bloodline recordings claim. The world is 6,000 years old. Not to mention the fact, that once again, there is still no proof that Abraham existed. A debunked bloodline list (age of the world debunks it) in the Old Testament doesn't prove he existed. Talmud Chaggiga 13b-14a states that there were 974 generations before God created Adam.
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Post by lastsupper on Mar 19, 2014 10:19:41 GMT -5
In the following verses Sarah, Isaacs mother dies of shock when she learns he is to be sacrificed. She was 127 years old upon her passing. She gave birth to Isaac at 90. Math.
Isaac understood and asked to be bound 6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, “Father?”
“Yes, my son?” Abraham replied. “The fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”
22.8 Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together. He told him in a non shocking way as to not make Isaac lose his resolve. Abraham was 136 years old at this point, so yes a 36 year old is a lad.
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Post by BlackHawk on Mar 19, 2014 10:24:13 GMT -5
Here's the simple truth....know one knows for sure,unless they have evidence to carbon date or extract some type of DNA samples from the evidence,or even if a strand of hair,or maybe even a diary from the person/'s in question would be the only solid way to find out if they had existed in the past.Only other idea I could come up with, if recorded accounts of that period in time recorded by people whom were well know from those time's in question left evidence either written or painted of the individual in question.
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Post by yourmomma on Mar 19, 2014 11:21:47 GMT -5
I'd never considered this, thank you for posting!
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Post by illuminati on Mar 19, 2014 11:27:31 GMT -5
So did Abraham tell Isaac in a non shocking way as to not make Isaac lose his resolve or did Isaac understand and asked to be bound?
Because to me it look like Abraham lied And the whole Abraham Tested thing is Genesis 22 and the death of Sarah is Genesis 23 – fable
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Post by superxsoldier on Mar 19, 2014 12:42:25 GMT -5
Most of the old testament is old religion rehashed into 'current time and place'. All those stories are older than Judaism itself. Abraham as described could not have existed.
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Post by patriotgames on Mar 19, 2014 12:55:00 GMT -5
I gave you S&F for your research and presentation, but I do not agree with your conclusion.
The OT tells us that Abraham came out of Ur (southern Iraq) from the remnant of Sumer, pre Babylon.
Abram was a nomad. His tribe was just a caravan of shepherds. They camped their way through their lives, journeying through many lands.
We will never find archaeological evidence of his existence. They would have left little or nothing as evidence and nothing that would be any different to the other tribes living in Canaan.
Regarding what some silly people are writing here that he was a murderer, well that is not true. He never sacrificed Isaac.
People forget that ALL people of the world were sacrificing their children to Baal like gods and goddesses like Diana. It was custom in Canaan to sacrifice the first born to Moloch and the fire. That is the state of all humanity at this time. Even the Hebrews, contrary to the Law of Israel, copied their neighbours and practised this as the Bible states.
That happening in the Bible is there to remind us that Abraham's God was not like the other gods and he made that clear in the lesson He taught to Abraham.
Many Christians believe that the story of Isaac is telling us that a man was willing to sacrifice his son for God. This is part of the covenant as we know later that God did have to sacrifice His Son for humanity.
Look at these ancient stories in context. Look at what all the other tribes were doing. Humanity was generally very barbaric and practised human sacrifice all over the world. That is what made the Hebrews different because their God replaced the sacrifice with an animal and then once Christ had come He took away the need for any blood offering.
If anything only the Hebrews and Christians have evolved us into much more civilized beings. I cannot think of any other ancient culture who urged a breaking away from sun worship and human sacrifice. The Babylonians did it, the Greeks and the Romans did it; the Romans and the Greeks were even sacrificing people in Christ's time. Check out J. G. Frazer's "The Golden Bough", J. Weston's "From Ritual To Romance" and the priests of Nemi for a detailed picture of sacrifice traditions all over the globe.
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Post by theconspiracist on Mar 19, 2014 13:11:22 GMT -5
yeah, but only if we believe a few of them lived to 300. is that not a potential avenue for doubt?
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