|
Post by lucky4u on Mar 9, 2014 23:22:58 GMT -5
pure speculation... and for the third time STOP with the assumptions of me.... You don't know me, or my beliefs or what I've studied...
Just stop....
On to the next...
Can thieves go to heaven?
Paul says Thieves will have no part in heaven... where as Jesus sad specifically to the thief beside him, ye shall be with me in paradise...
|
|
|
Post by ciathug on Mar 9, 2014 23:41:48 GMT -5
If the bible was truly the word of God, then wouldn't every person who truly wished to understand the bible, be inspired by the holy spirit to come to the same conclusions as all other true believers?
Instead, it seems that all Christians see the bible differently.
|
|
|
Post by illuminati on Mar 9, 2014 23:51:20 GMT -5
Interesting thread. Here's my take:
Paul also stated this:
(1 Corinthians 6:11) . . .And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.
So while, no a thief cannot enter into the kingdom of God in heaven, there were thieves who were declared righteous by means of their faith in Jesus' ransom, and were adopted as spirit sons of God and who will achieve the heavenly award.
The evildoer at Jesus' side, however is not counted among those who will go to heaven. Jesus promised him, on the day he was to die, that he would be with him in paradise.
When Jesus kingdom rule comes to earth and does unto the earth as it is in heaven the earth will be converted to a paradise, and during that kingdom rule Jesus will resurrect all those in the memorial tombs, both righteous people, and unrighteous:
(John 5:28, 29) . . .Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.
If Jesus promised the evildoer that he will resurrect him in that future earthly paradise, over which he will rule as king, then most assuredly he will! Wouldn't you, even though you are a sinner, be consoled to have such an assurance?
|
|
|
Post by lastsupper on Mar 10, 2014 0:01:14 GMT -5
That's the problem. Most people "think" they have The Holy Spirit, or feel "something" and call it Holy Spirit.
We are told that The Holy Spirit makes you feel love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control (Galatians 5:22), nothing about feeling something "take over you" and "controlling" you to make you jump up and down or feeling like a trouble maker who is passionate about "The Bible" and judging others.
The Holy Spirit is most important, The Bible is just a resource for those who already have The Holy Spirit. The Bible cannot give you eternal life:
"You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." - John 5:39
Holy Spirit which is Compassion is most important, THEN everything else.
|
|
|
Post by lucky4u on Mar 10, 2014 2:03:28 GMT -5
now you're just preaching... sigh Incorrect... Jesus said TODAY you will be with me in paradise
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
On to the next...
There are several accounts of God walking with men on earth.... Yet Jesus said specifically "No man has ever seen God"
Who is correct? The OT or the son of God?
|
|
|
Post by lastsupper on Mar 10, 2014 5:03:32 GMT -5
You are misunderstanding when Jesus stated: "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise." He was not stating that that exact day he would be in paradise, rather, that on that day, Jesus was affirming that he would be in paradise.
Common sense helps us to understand this. Jesus went to hades (hell) for the parts of the three days he was dead. And he knew we has going to be dead for that that time. It is very obvious he wasn't saying that he and the evildoer were going to be in some type of paradise on that exact day.
These so-called contradictions seem to come from a lot of twisting and misunderstanding of information in the scriptures.
As far as the scriptures that talk about God walking among humans (such as the three angels that appeared to Abraham). These angels (as they represented God) when they talked to Abraham, they did not come of their own accord, they were messengers in behalf of God, so it could be said that they were there as God before Abraham. There is no contradiction, you just have to understand how the Hebrews understood these things, which were trivial to them, but people today blow out of proportion because they cannot understand them.
There still continue to be no contradiction.
|
|
|
Post by davinci on Mar 10, 2014 5:17:16 GMT -5
So, I have a particular problem with the story of Lot and would love to debate that in detail but ...and yes I did copy this list from another person, below, but it's a good starting point and shows the problems with the bible, in my opinion.
as for Lot...he sends his daughters out to be raped...there isn't one child in the whole city worth saving? BS. You get turned to salt for turning around to look...at presumably huge explosions and loud crazy destruction. The daughters have babies with their dad in the end! A horrible story with no redeeming value.
St Paul’s advice about whether women are allowed to teach men in church: So women are to be subservient to men? I don't want a religion where women are less than men. This isn't an attack but the verse says it all.
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)
God said kill the Children? Really?
“This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3)
But then are there really sorceresses and how would you know one. Brings to mind the Salem witch trials where innocent people were killed.
“Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)
Why is this even in the bible?
“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)
This is how we want Christians treating their women? I think not, take it out of the bible.
“So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” (Judges 19:25-28)
So what is this saying? We're pretty sure from a psychological perspective that homosexuality is more than a mere choice you make one day.
“In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.” (Romans 1:27)
You want to treat your daughters this way?
“And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, ‘If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, to be offered up by me as a burnt-offering.’ Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and there was his daughter coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing. She was his only child; he had no son or daughter except her. When he saw her, he tore his clothes, and said, ‘Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low; you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.’” (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5)
God says, kill your son. Proving what? This is a horrible story.
‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.’ (Genesis 22:2)
another verse that says women are less than men.
“Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:22)
The Bible now saying slavery is correct. and good.
“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)
So as this list demonstrates are some really bad verses in the bible that are A. either open to a bad interpretation or B. they can just be taken at face value and are cruel and vile versus. they should be removed.
The next point is that I'm not sure that Constantine and others didn't already re-do the bible as they saw to it, so thus the commandment to not change the word of God has already been done.
|
|
|
Post by bond009 on Mar 10, 2014 6:24:46 GMT -5
actually, OP; the misunderstandings of the bible go back to genesis but to keep with you theme of conflict between Christ and Satan Satan was active from the garden of eden on. after the fall God told the serpent that his seed and her seed would be enemies. that his seed would bruise her seed's heel and her seed would crush satan's head. then you have Cain and able. remember Jesus was foretold to be of the lineage of Adam and Eve. Cain killed able. so at that point the prophesy of the messiah was challenged and under threat until the birth of seth. if you look into the original languages instead of the English translations you will see a very astonishing fact about the geneology of Cain. it is supported fully throughout the bible and Jesus says that his challengers were of thier father the devil that he was a murderer from the start and the father of lies. he links his accusers as descendants of cain and satan. (you could be forgiven for assuming as most of christianity does that He was speaking in spiritual terms until you go back and examine the passages of the fall and it's immediate aftermath in the original languages) from the garden of eden on the descendants of cain were a constant threat to the validity of Christ's geneological credentials as per the messianic prophesy. about 400 years before he was born the priestly line was corrupted by the descendants of cain to the point that there were no priests qualified to touch or transport the ark to the new temple and the real priests had to be sent for and the caravan had to wait for them. and then with his advent they were right there opposing him. unwittingly they actually helped him accomplish what he came to do.
|
|
|
Post by lucky4u on Mar 10, 2014 6:44:46 GMT -5
What is it?
|
|
|
Post by stolenpony on Mar 10, 2014 6:59:31 GMT -5
No... that is called reading into something that isn't there.... Now we get into silly Christian dogma... Hades and Hell are two different things.... Hell is a myth, Not to mention the fact that Jesus didn't use the word Hell in any of his sermons, the word he used is Gehenna, Look it up, its an actual place just outside of the walls of Jerusalem....
Secondly the idea of Jesus going to hell isn't even biblical... Yet another in a long list of interpretations from preachers and pastors... and has no biblical basis... Perhaps one place where he says the son of man while be in the heart of the earth.... but that is a allegorical meaning... not a literal one... Which is a contradiction in itself.... Jesus said he was headed to paradise on the cross... Unless you consider Hell paradise... and considering its nothing more then a myth... Similar to a good portion of Christian theology... I said the OT... Within the pages of the OT you'll find several reference to God walking with man.... Jesus said no man has ever seen God...
the contradiction stands...
Moving on....
At the so called "conversion" of Paul.... Who fell to the ground?
Everyone present? Acts 26:14
And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Or maybe just Paul? Acts 9:7
And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
|
|